(no subject)

[faithellen]

Manners? Whoulda thunk it?

I admire this guy, and not because I'm anti-child -- *everyone* should behave themselves in public, and we learn it as children. There are places we can be loud and boisterous, and places where we speak in more moderate tones and sit calmly. Children have to learn that, and parents have to teach it. This guy is just promoting that process.

::waiting for the onslaught::

Comments

AMEN!

[ladylyonesse.livejournal.com]

Good for him! That's a hard stand to take, but one I wholeheartedly support. I knew when I had my daughter that it would change our ability to be out-and-about together until she was old enough to banish -- but surprisingly, we can take her almost anywhere. It is MY responsibility to make sure I'm not taking her someplace when she is over-tired, cranky, or otherwise behaving like a toddler.

Conversely, I will say that if we're someplace like the grocery store, and she has a meltdown in the middle of the long checkout line, there's not a damn thing I can do about it if my husband isn't home to watch her for us -- we have to have groceries, people, and I'll get out of here as fast as I'm able.

Wherever possible, though, we make sure she doesn't impact other folks -- if she starts melting down in a restaurant, I take her out to the car or outside until it passes. If she shouts or screams in public where it's not appropriate, I have gone as far as to flick her nose while speaking sternly to her, THEN remove her because my upset with her makes her cry.

I am totally with this guy. :)

Re: AMEN!

[faithellen]

Grocery stores? Totally different. I'm not paying restaurant prices and expecting to enjoy them there -- I want to get in and out as much as everyone else. :)

Re: AMEN!

[pyratelady.livejournal.com]

It is MY responsibility to make sure I'm not taking her someplace when she is over-tired, cranky, or otherwise behaving like a toddler.

Thank you!

Wherever possible, though, we make sure she doesn't impact other folks -- if she starts melting down in a restaurant, I take her out to the car or outside until it passes.

Thank you thank you thank you!

Conversely, I will say that if we're someplace like the grocery store, and she has a meltdown in the middle of the long checkout line, there's not a damn thing I can do about it if my husband isn't home to watch her for us -- we have to have groceries, people, and I'll get out of here as fast as I'm able.

I understand. Ever wonder if all the kids have secret meetings or something? It's like they KNOW they can get away with the meltdowns in the checkout line! (Why else would so many of them do it?)

Re: AMEN!

[thatliardiego.livejournal.com]

It is MY responsibility to make sure I'm not taking her someplace when she is over-tired, cranky, or otherwise behaving like a toddler.

Gee, I wish the woman who let her screaming kid stand in the aisle behind us at the MUVICO at the Sunday 3:35 Harry Potter showing felt the same way. The kid wandered around squawling and bellowing on and off for ten minutes until enough dirty looks and bad vibes shot her way forced her to take her kid outside. Which she did. For five minutes, after which she brought him back in and he started doing it again.

Agreed in principle, but not in deed?

[3fingeredsalute.livejournal.com]

I think that it would be difficult to "enforce" such a policy. One can always boot an unruly person (child or adult-child) if they cross the boundaries of infringing on the enjoyment of others. I respect his position on the issue, but I took notice of something else. The guy has TIN CEILINGS! I despise that - and it seems like it is the de-facto standard now to make the place feel "alive" by echoing noises off of every surface and then playing the radio too loud so everyone has to scream to be heard over "polite dinner conversation". I'm not one who is shy of loud noises, and I assuredly do not want the place to be dead silent, but carpet, curtains, sound baffling, SOMETHING to allow muted noises to be muted would be so appreciated. Of course, this is just my pet peeve. Maybe there is positive aspect to being so loud you can't make out what the daily specials are.

That being said, the other problem he is encountering is that the good parents often have the well-behaved children. Not always, but often the unruly children are that way because the parents are ape-shit nutzo. I appreciated greatly the comment that the people making the complaints against his policy were the *ahem* people with high senses of self-entitlement. In other words, the parents are the real spoiled brats. The little apples don't fall too far from the tree, and probably act out because their parents can't be interrupted from all their self-indulgent self-love to parent, and so they demonstrate ugly behavior just to get any attention at all.

Now, I know that I do not refer to all parents of any child who acts out -- of course not. However, our society has taken a decidedly ugly "me me me" turn. ("Screw you - I will NOT keep it down! I'm Paris HILTON!") Where are the ideals of community, respect, compassion and the rights of others? THOSE are family values -- not the rest of the crap that's being promoted by the same phrase. I dislike the sign on the door only because it should not be necessary to have to remind people how to behave, not because I disagree with his right to fight back.

Re: Agreed in principle, but not in deed?

[faithellen]

Architecture fascist, aren't you? ;)

Re: Agreed in principle, but not in deed?

[3fingeredsalute.livejournal.com]

I see how you are -- you defend the echo factors of tin celings, but leave poor little malnourished Paris Hilton prone to my ire?

Harumph -- passive slut-basher! *snicker*

[cozit.livejournal.com]

Of course, I'd also like to see that "all ages" applied to any "adult" who feels they have to have conversations at the top of their lungs (in person or cell phone), and/or find they have to *scream* with laughter repeatedly, frequently, over a relatively long period of time, in the same place. Maybe in a bar, but *not* in what hopes to be a quiet(ish) cafe... or restaurant (other than maybe specifically family restaurant). Wonder if he could come up with a second sign for that, placed at adult eye-level...

But, yup, agree with all else you put up there.

Oh.. except for the tin ceiling part... *If* the ceiling he's refering to is of the type my mind instantly pictured it to be (antique, tooled tin) then there is *no* way I'd want it covered up. Those things are pretty, precious, and most have disappeared from view already, often destroyed rather than just covered.

Now if its just tin for noise value, that's another story...

[cozit.livejournal.com]

That'd be pretty neat. Tin ceiling, tapestries on the wall... a bit of *soft* background music when there's not a crowd (at least)... Sounds like a great way to get a bite, a drink, and quiet conversation, a bit of a read or a bit of *quiet* typing done.

[3fingeredsalute.livejournal.com]

You make a very good point. I enjoy the look of an art-deco tin ceiling, too. If its purpose is fashion, and not the "live atmosphere" accoustic debacle, the ceiling should most certainly stay tin. BUT... I think they can put something up besides a sign saying for kids to be quiet to mute the noise level? Like... I dunno -- noise dampening tapestries? Again, that's just my annoyance at how noisy places try to be these days. Doesn't really include much about ill-behaved children (and parents).

Also, I don't know if you took the "all ages" portion from my comment. Just to clarify, I alluded to "child or adult child", which I intended as immature people of ALL ages. *g*

[o2bacelt.livejournal.com]

His business, he can put up what sign he likes. Would I give the man my money? Hell no. All kids, even really good ones, have their moments. When my child has those moments, she is removed from the situation, period. That being said, I don't need someone telling me that it needs to be done, I can manage that one all by myself, thank you very much.

The waitress who announced that we have a screamer to the entire restaurant... RUDE! Period. Give the mom a minute to try and make said infant comfortable, it's not like the kid was laying on the floor throwing a tantrum, it was an infant. Even I have issues with toddlers laying on the floors of place or running around crazy and I have a toddler. My daughter isn't allowed out of someone's lap or the high chair unless accompanied by an adult. Uncomfortable infants get a break, even before I had kids they got a break.

To each his own.

[pyratelady.livejournal.com]

That sign isn't for you, then. I say that with respect, because you're the kind of parent that I like -- the kind who keeps her kids in line and keeps them from ruining the environment for everyone else.

[faithellen]

I agree with you completely about the waitress. I think he's trying to combat the issue of chronically irritating kids -- the ones the parents ignore or tacitly encourage.

I try really hard not to be irritated by kids being kids -- when their parents are being parents and are actively dealing with them. I'm not a kid person, so this has always been an issue for me. My heart goes out to parents who are handling kids in the middle of a meltdown, and they have to navigate their way out of the situation while trying to restore peace. It's the ones who turn a blind eye that make me insane.

[autumncat.livejournal.com]

I try really hard not to be irritated by kids being kids -- when their parents are being parents and are actively dealing with them.

This is the bottom line, really. If the parents just ignore the behvaior and go back to reading their newspapers - or do nothing to try to get the kid to stop...then that's the problem.

[thatwasjen]

All kids, even really good ones, have their moments. When my child has those moments, she is removed from the situation, period. That being said, I don't need someone telling me that it needs to be done, I can manage that one all by myself, thank you very much.

I'm guessing that you also don't need to be told to wear shoes and a shirt when you go into a store, restaurant, or wherever. And yet, those signs are visible on many businesses' doors, because there are people who can't figure out the basic requirements of going about their business in a world with other people in it.

You've got it exactly right: When a child has one of "those moments," the child should be removed from the situation. And the definition of one of "those moments" will change based on whether you're in a library, a playground, or someplace in between. But too many people seem incapable of figuring out those distinctions.

[pyratelady.livejournal.com]

:: wild applause ::

He should open a place around here. The sense of entitlement in this town is UNREAL.

And the thing is, you can't make everyone happy, but you can make some people happy. I avoid "family" restaurants, but I would gladly and regularly patronize this guy's place.

[sunnidae]

And that's the other thing -- like the woman toward the bottom of the article who uses how many high-chairs the place has as a litmus? Geoff and I have been lucky all-round with Jacqui, because she DOES behave well in public. (I like to think it's because we've been taking her to restaurants since she was 3 days old, but really I know it's because we're lucky.) But we mostly only take her to restaurants that cater to families, and for the most part people react as I'd expect them to: they ignore her, because there's nothing for them to really react to. But in a couple of instances -- at FAMILY RESTAURANTS -- there've been people who throw attitude toward our table because she's TALKING. (Not in English, don't get excited. Babbling, in a conversational tone.) And THOSE are the people I'd like to throw rocks at.

I understand what this man is going for -- from the sounds of it, some parents weren't parenting at all. And if you're without kids, it's hard to separate the good parents of kids who are having-a-moment from the bad parents of kids-who-wreck-the-place -- I say this from the perspective of the kids' dept. at b&n. While I was there, we weren't allowed to say anything to the oblivious ones ... now there's a sign telling parents to keep their children in sight. Because some people seem to NEED that reminder that the establishment they're in is not a daycare.

I'd eat at his restaurant, and I'd bring Jacqui. I know how she behaves in public, and I know that sign doesn't apply to me -- just like the "keep an eye on your kids" sign at b&n would never apply to me, because I already do.

[sunnidae]

Heh -- more concisely than my reply to Darcy --

It seems to me the only people who should be affronted by that sign are the ones to whom it applies.

[faithellen]

Now you make me want to walk around topless and barefoot, and get all bent out of shape when people complain.

Which They Will. (and should -- it's hard to keep your feet looking nice when it's dry and cold out!)

[thatwasjen]

I'd love to be face to face with the woman who said "I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent."

He is not attempting to dictate the process, just the desired result. And it's his place, in which he may do so.

[blueeowyn.livejournal.com]

Yes! This issue has shown up on 2 other LJ friends of mine and I got my ears pined back thoroughly by someone who took umbrage that someone who does not have kids might actually have a valid opinion. This person also stated that if Mother Theresa were to give his child a glare, that he would be mad at her. SHEESH

You, my dear, get to deal with actors who can be as bad as kids and not as easily changed in some cases. I gather you also have a dog and children can respond to the same positive and negative reinforcement that dogs/cats/horses/etc. respond to. They aren't THAT different (esp. the really young ones).n

[ilostonjeopardy.livejournal.com]

I agree that people need to keep an eye on their kids and demonstrate common courtesy. However, the atmosphere has been set up that says, "You and yours aren't welcome here," by the rude waitress and the report of the mother who says she feels uncomfortable there now...that she gets looks the minute she walks in.

Since the sign is now in the window, there are those who will now immediately focus on a child the minute they walk through the door and just wait for a peep. Then, it's "SEE??? THEY ARE BREAKING YOUR RULE!!! ENFORCE YOUR RULE!!!" How loud was the two year old? We don't know. We only have the mother's report. But what is the operational definition here? Does a single exclamation that is then quieted still get an admonishment that if you can't keep that one quiet, you'll have to leave?

So far, Isabella has been FAB in public. Of course, if she were to start losing it, I'd remove her from the situation. I know that not everyone does that. But, I can tell you, if I were flinging myself into that cafe to get some scones for takeout and still had hostile stares and attitude from the staff, I'd just take my money elsewhere.

[sunnidae]

Okay -- all of that is true, too -- I only reacted to the sign, not the atmosphere once inside the door. But if it's true that people get nasty looks just for walking in with a baby, then maybe his ultimate goal IS to discourage families from coming in -- in which case he's defining his desired clientele, and if there are enough customers without young children to keep him operating, then again -- more power to him.

[theresa-grant.livejournal.com]

When Andy was younger, we left restaurants if we couldn't quiet him down. It's my responsibility as a parent to teach behavior and consideration, and I get frustrated when I see parents completely ignoring their child as they act up in what I consider out of range for the age. Children will chatter, they will play, they will express themselves -- but that doesn't entitle them to bang on doors, sprawl on floors, run around the office screaming...

Anyway. Good for this guy. It's his business, he can do whatever he wants within the law. There's nothing that says people are "entitled" to use his business in a way that disrupts his other customers. It's a business, not a publically-funded open area.

I should send this guy a "Be a PARENT, damnit!" t-shirt...

[autumncat.livejournal.com]

I agree with most everything in the article.
I don't agree with them making snarky comments to people that don't fit the sign (those who parent, kids who behave).

An online petition urging child-free sections in North Carolina restaurants drew hundreds of signers, including Janelle Funk, who wrote, "Whenever a hostess asks me 'smoking or nonsmoking?' I respond, 'No kids!' "
I often want to ask for the child free zone. I honestly do wish there were places that offered it.

"I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"
And to this I say - how can you enjoy yourselves in a cafe (and how can anyone else enjoy themselves) if your child is running amok and you are ignoring that behavior? How can you enjoy a meal or coffee when there is screaming going on right next to you?

I have been in restaurants where the child has been loud and screaming the entire meal - and yet the parents just sat there.

I have also been in restaurants where the kids behaved and were just too cute for words.

It's a crap shoot when you get seated, unfortunately.

[emalia.livejournal.com]

You know what else I hate (Other than kids ruling their parents)...
Car and portable DVD/game players (not the handheld arcade games, but the portable Xbox, ect...)
Why?
Because your life revolves around the television and you are missing too much life. Get up, go outside, and make some friends that aren't online!

[blueeowyn.livejournal.com]

What I like is that "Children of all ages" ... i.e. some of the teenagers, 20-somethings, 30-somethinges, etc. who are basically still behaving as children (my Dad fit that description to a T) are also invited to not go there.

Monitor your children, teach them to be responsible, help make this a better country. It isn't that crazy an idea but some people seem to find it to be. I was at the Spanish Riding School of Vienna over the weekend in the $75 seats (before the discounts I scored) and there were at least 2 small children in the row behind us. I hear that they were kicking the seats in front of them the entire first act (just over an hour long). Why in the world did the parents think that they would sit still for that long? If not, why didn't the parents leave? Fortunately, while their chatter wasn't quiet, it wasn't THAT loud (merely very piercing).i